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English: Lingua Franca forever?
Message de ruofei posté le 08-05-2005 à 10:00:18 (S | E | F | I)
Hello everyone!
Are we feeling good today?
Here I come up with a language topic!
As you know, English has become the world 'Lingua Franca'.
You would be amazed to see how great is the importance of English in Asia. In China, for example, kids start learning English since 1rst grade of primary school. Learning English is compulsory -- even these University students who study other foreign languages (Russian, French and Japanese in most cases), have to take English as a minor subject. Same in France, Italy or Madagascar, at least from middle through high school.
I guess it's good to have a language that can ensure global unity: on meeting a foreigner, we know we could always rely on your English conversational skills! A great deal of people want to learn English and everybody knows at least basic words such as 'hello' and 'welcome'
That being said, Spanish language is pretty widespread too and French is growing more and more popular. As for Chinese or Japanese languages, many people suggest that western learners are growing numerous, not only because of their fancy symbol kind of writing, but also because the rising economy of both countries. Now, I seriously doubt whether Asian languages can impose themselves as universal languages as they are way too difficult to learn. But I do have a 'hope' in Spanish and French.
I'm asking:
do you think English will always be the Top1 language?
If one language was ever to replace English, which one would it be -or would you like it to be?
How long would all this take?
-------------------
Edit?par ruofei le 08-05-2005 10:10
just proofreading
.
Message de ruofei posté le 08-05-2005 à 10:00:18 (S | E | F | I)
Hello everyone!Are we feeling good today?
Here I come up with a language topic!
As you know, English has become the world 'Lingua Franca'.
You would be amazed to see how great is the importance of English in Asia. In China, for example, kids start learning English since 1rst grade of primary school. Learning English is compulsory -- even these University students who study other foreign languages (Russian, French and Japanese in most cases), have to take English as a minor subject. Same in France, Italy or Madagascar, at least from middle through high school.
I guess it's good to have a language that can ensure global unity: on meeting a foreigner, we know we could always rely on your English conversational skills! A great deal of people want to learn English and everybody knows at least basic words such as 'hello' and 'welcome'
That being said, Spanish language is pretty widespread too and French is growing more and more popular. As for Chinese or Japanese languages, many people suggest that western learners are growing numerous, not only because of their fancy symbol kind of writing, but also because the rising economy of both countries. Now, I seriously doubt whether Asian languages can impose themselves as universal languages as they are way too difficult to learn. But I do have a 'hope' in Spanish and French.
I'm asking:
do you think English will always be the Top1 language? If one language was ever to replace English, which one would it be -or would you like it to be? How long would all this take?-------------------
Edit?par ruofei le 08-05-2005 10:10
just proofreading
.Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de lethidee, postée le 08-05-2005 à 11:39:52 (S | E)
Hello ruofei
Your question is very interesting and the answer isn't easy.
I hope one day people may speak the same language in the world but no commercial only friendly.
Why not imagine or create a new universal language as Esperanto or another one ?
What do you think about that ?
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de aimen7, postée le 08-05-2005 à 17:48:44 (S | E)
HELLO ruofei,
I agree with lethedee, these questions need thinking a little while, I'll come back to them as soon as I translate lucile's text, because I'm a lucile-maniac too.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de werriy58, postée le 09-05-2005 à 14:59:08 (S | E)
Hi everybody,
I trust English language and I think that it will always be the Top1 language in the world, because the gait of English with his around 514 million speakers people in 2005, it is really the nowadays Lingua Franca (diplomatic language). English is now the intermediate language more using in USA, Angland, Canadian, Autralia, Asia, Africa and other. English is easy to learn by Cheenese, Japanese, Indian, African and other. You know that China has many people and kids now in China start learning English since 1rst grade of primary school. Spanish has a lot people too but has not influence as English. Thus English is Lingua Franca. OK. Werriy58
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de aimen7, postée le 09-05-2005 à 15:53:29 (S | E)
Hello everybody,
The questions asked about "The English language as a lingua franca" and the possibility that it would ever be supplanted by another language, are not easy to answer because they give rise to other questions such as:the "utility" of learning foreign languages, the choice of the language, cultures, the ideal society, and so on...
As a speaker of English as a foreign language, I should defend it and stand for its predominance on other languages but I am caught in a dilemma instead.
If the English language predominates as the "top 1 language", what will become of the other languages? As language carries culture, would cultures disappear little by little?
From another point of view, English will probably be "the top 1 language in the world" for a long time although it isn't appreciated by a lot of people who find it difficult to learn(they meet problems in grammar, pronounciation, intonation, vocabulary ...). Some middle school pupils I know even hate the language because they struggle with it. English is largely used in commercial and other fields but not necessarily among the public. It has achieved the status as the world's lingua franca through globalisation but has it got an important status among society? Besides, in front of the growing dominance of the English language, speakers of other languages insist on their own local language identity to preserve their cultural and historical tradition.
It would probably take a long time before another language takes the place of English in the world for many obvious reasons. Nevertheless I'm against the idea that a language be more important than another. I respect any language. They are a "heritage" that we can't deny. I'm in favour of a multilingual society rather than a monolingual one.
This is my opinion and the debate is open.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de traviskidd, postée le 09-05-2005 à 21:57:24 (S | E)
I've become interested in Ido, which is essentially an improved version of Esperanto, designed to eliminate some things that are awkward in Esperanto. Here is a link:
Lien Internet
I think that it will be a very long time before English is replaced as the world's lingua franca. Even governments of some non-English-speaking countries put English on their internal symbols! I am surprised at the extent to which English has even pervaded Saudi Arabia, the land of Islam, where one would expect Arabic to have a "holy" status. English has become so entrenched in the world that it has effectively aquired "monopoly" status. Thus, if English is to ever be replaced as the lingua franca of the world, it will take a very long time and a whole lot of effort.
As an English-speaker, I myself am ambivalent about English's dominance in the world. On the one hand, it is nice knowing that I can go almost anywhere in the world and be understood in my own native tongue. On the other hand, having English spoken everywhere removes much of the need, and hence much of the incentive, to learn a foreign language. I think this is too bad, because, as aimen pointed out, language carries culture, and thus not deciding to learn a foreign anguage means missing out on much of the cultural diversity that makes the world interesting!
So ... I think that English will not be replaced as the lingua franca for a long time, if ever. But should there ever be a new lingua franca, I wouldn't mind, because I would enjoy learning it.
P.S. Since the lingua franca is not French but English, shouldn't it be called the lingua angla?
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de monik, postée le 09-05-2005 à 21:59:06 (S | E)
The questions were :
do you think English will always be the Top1 language?
For a long time, I do think English will be the top 1 language, yes.
If one language was ever to replace English, which one would it be -or would you like it to be?
I'm not sure which one it would be, I don't see any...
Spanish in South of America ... Arabic in Arab countries... Chinese...
I would like it to be French, it could be possible in a couple of countries of Europe or Africa...
How long would all this take?
Quite a long time! The French Government has been trying to implant "Alliances Francaises" all over the word for that matter... But only a certain minority of Foreigners access to it. Money, money, money...
I totally agree with the previous post.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de post-scriptum, postée le 09-05-2005 à 23:08:56 (S | E)
Good evening,
In my opinion, English language is largely used in World trade, scientific publications and so on, but I believe it's in fact restricted or limited to a very small public in the vast World! Everywhere in the World, there are many and many High Schools and Higher Education Institutions with a lot of different languages. They make thousands of engineers, research workers, economists, etc. but the poor little farmer who lives in a small village, for example in Africa, between his wife, his five children and his only cow if possible, the poor little fisherman who is obliged to fish with his tiny fishing "boat", like all the low-people, will continue to speak their own dialects.
Because there are millions of persons who live in their distant countries or remote islands, I believe that English will be reserved to a specific population. Here, with our computer, our newsweeks, our books, we are certainly some privileged persons.
In the Philippines for example, there are lots of etnic groups. I believe they wrote their laws in English in the past until several years ago. At present, they are obliged to write all their laws in English and also in Filipino (the most widespread dialect in the Philippines) because all the population continue to speak Filipino or many others dialects...
Have a good night.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de dakir, postée le 10-05-2005 à 01:09:45 (S | E)
Hello everybody.
it is true that each language expresses its culture and the culture can disappear if its language stops to vehicle its messages (but it is uncommon even if some cultures and languages had disappeared before).. Nowadays, I think English is the widespread language because of the economy. it expresses the strongest economy in the world . we read english in most of the world products packages. and economy carries all the other vital domain with it.
In my opinion, If a language wants to be at the top, it must be written on the package of its products which must be desired by other countries(strong economy), then everybody will try to read it to understand what it is. Countries will make it a part of its school map. So which economy is coming?
Excuse my bad english and Good night..
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de ruofei, postée le 10-05-2005 à 05:10:06 (S | E)
Thank you everyone, this was a nice reading! Esperanto makes the international communication easier and is also response to the growing status of English. In this extent, yes Lethidee you’re right, people can make friends with their neighbor more easily. Now, and even if its dialect ‘Ido’ has improved the Esperanto’s shortcomings, those modifications are only based on lexicological and linguistic issues. Using a constructed a language is without a doubt, fairer than using a pre-exiting language, in this case English.
But I’m not going to talk about this, quite a lot of things to say…we might as well start a new thread on this.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de ruofei, postée le 10-05-2005 à 05:27:47 (S | E)
Back to our topic: the issue of English.
As Werriy pointed out, English has this advantage to be the native language of key nations such as England and the USA but also vast territories like Canada and Australia. Plus, it is the official/unofficial language of a few African and Asian countries and on top of that, it's the foreign language first choice in most schools throughout the world.
If another language was ever to catch up with that, I strongly believe like you all do, that this is going to take forever
! About
Aimen's interrogation: "[sic] As language carries culture, would cultures disappear little by little?" Well, I think the culture that is most likely to disappear first is the Anglo-Saxon culture. Do you agree on that? It's common knowledge that English language is the 1rst borrower i.e loan words=words borrowed from other languages, and it keeps being so as its expansion goes further. I hope English has a maximum quota of borrowings, otherwise it'll end up very much like Esperanto! It's nice to get Travis's point of view: he knows better than we do that English NS (Native Speakers) find themselves in a conflicting situation: trouble-free communication when you travel but at the same time likely disinterest in other languages. However, you show clearly that this is a "general
" idea because we know that you're very keen on languages...and btw, I didn't know of "Ido". Do you think USA education should impose a second language at school? (I don't think it's the case at the moment, is it?) Lingua Angla
, that would be more like it, indeed!Monik, about "Alliance Francaise": I see the same problem as you, they're quite elitist and so, teachers find it almost impossible to get a position and students must be able to afford their so-called high standard education that is way too expensive.
English won't probably reach far-off and smaller civilizations -and neither will Esperanto-, like P-scriptum
says. To my view, this isn't only because of the lack of means of communication but also because of the mentalities; islands and small nations tend to be conservative-. Am I right?Dakir (your English is fine!). You have a good point here, as I've noticed that even the instructions of use of most Japanese manufactured goods are written in English. What you propose here would be a good marketing strategy but can fail to achieve its goal (if people don't understand the instructions, they may simply not buy the product
, what do you think?)-------------------
Edit?par ruofei le 10-05-2005 11:08
Proofreading, as always
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de traviskidd, postée le 10-05-2005 à 09:35:39 (S | E)
Every state has its own educational requirements, but in my state (and, I think, in most states) a foreign language is required only if one wants to go to college*. Of course, most "intelligent" (I use the term in its usual sense, although there are many different ways in which one can be intelligent) people are expected to go to college, and so naturally they are expected to learn a foreign language.
Spanish is the most popular foreign language, because it's the easiest and because we are heavily influenced by our proximity to Latin America. French is popular among those who want to learn a more "elite" language. Finally, a few students take German or Latin. I don't think any other foreign languages have a significant following, at least not in high school.
P.S. What's the Latin word for "download"?
(* in America we don't say "go to university" ... it is always "go to college" (or "school"), even if the institution is a university. So I would say "I went to college at the University of South Carolina.")
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de aimen7, postée le 10-05-2005 à 11:37:11 (S | E)
Hello everybody,
In fact, the most important question which emerges from the initial questions is the "utility"of teaching foreign languages at school. That question is linked to the following"what could be the ideal linguistic medium which could ensure communication and understanding between the world nations(since this is the aim we want to reach):would it be English, Spanish, French or a neutral and utopian language as "esperanto"?
If I had to summarise the objectives of teaching a foreign language at school in Europe, Africa and Asia, I would say: to enable children to communicate in the foreign language(English having the primacy, other languages being secondary). The word"communicate" implies of course a linguistic and cultural knowledge of the language. Behind such an objective, it is assumed I suppose, that we seek to create a "well-rounded" individual(having knowledge in languages, maths, history...)
Furthermore it is proved that learning a foreign language enables to have a better knowledge of one's own language, hence the necessity.
That being said I felt a little dismayed(consternée) when I read somwhere that there are schools in some states in the US which cannot afford the teaching of a foreign language to their kids because of budget restrictions.That's amazing. In addition, I understand from what you said previously Travis, that learning foreign languages seems to be reserved to an elite. I have the feeling of a kind of discrimination somewhere when I measure the importance of English in the world.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de werriy58, postée le 10-05-2005 à 14:54:09 (S | E)
Hello everybody,
About lingua angla. Yes indeed, we must correct henceforth to say rather lingua angla, that's right. I agree with Traviskidd's opinion, because franca means French.
About culture. I support that language don't carry culture, 'cause until now English have not modify Cheenese culture, it is only a diplomatic language.
Thanks a lot everybody for your free opinion and free ideas. This discuss has open well my mind to seek and to improve my English. Thank you ruofei for this good topic to the forum. Werriy58
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de dakir, postée le 10-05-2005 à 17:42:17 (S | E)
Hello ruofei --
yes; you are quite right, but if you look how widespread are english communication means(TV-cine- computers -satelites..science magazines.....)..and thus their marketing.. How widespread are some english products like "jeans" "cat" "MC do" "coke" and so on..... All these strongest products carrie the language from country to country..you will see its influence on people who will wonder about the name: "what does it mean", " its english names " and so on: and each name carries story. The language story carries the culture and here comes and rises the curiosity and the necessity of learning english. If the product quality is the best, people will be attracted to learn the notice inside to know more about it and not, to not buy it
.(the quality )In addition, the instructions of use of most manufactured goods in the world are written in English with a translation of its following languages.
Which economy is coming ?
bye for now
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de traviskidd, postée le 10-05-2005 à 17:51:23 (S | E)
An interesting position, werriy, to say that language doesn't carry culture. Could you elaborate, please? Supposing (hypothetically of course) that everybody in China suddenly forgot Chinese and started speaking English, do you think that this would have little impact on the Chinese way of life?
While I don't necessarily think that culture inexorably depends on language, I do think that culture is reflected much in language, and that by learning a language, one can learn a lot about culture. This is especially seen in words used by specific subcultures. For example, you can hardly talk about the "psychadelic" subculture of the 1960s and 70s without using the word "groovy", and you can hardly appreciate the "California surfer" subculture without understanding a sentence such as
Dude, that wave was, like, totally awesome; we totally wiped out!
So, maybe you're right; maybe speaking English wouldn't change the Chinese. Maybe, to suit their culture, they would change English!
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de aimen7, postée le 10-05-2005 à 19:54:30 (S | E)
Good evening,
I can't help insisting on the fact that a given culture needs language to exist and vice versa. They are interdependent. Culture is vehiculed/transmitted via language. Language is kept alive thanks to the very existence of culture.
However languages aren't static, they change and evolve whatsoever.
Today "non-English speaking countries" are maybe adapting to the omnipresence of English, probably(as dakir mentions) for economic purposes. In the meantime,They are trying to keep their culture safe, while their language is evolving like any other language.
Maybe as ruofei thinks, the anglo-saxon culture will tend to disappear first.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de ruofei, postée le 11-05-2005 à 02:20:09 (S | E)
Communication and the knowledge of culture(s) are necessities that are made possible by learning one's language, yes Aimen [your second last post], I'm totally with you; there are also many other reasons (increase your creativity, job nobility, enhance your memory..)
Dakir, now I understand that when you first talked about products' names, you were actually referring to "trademarks" and in this case, I agree with you, some logos can sound funny and arouse one's curiosity. However it often happens that people don't pay much attention to them and 'consume the products' without wondering what the meaning of their 'marks' is. (PS: How do you mean: "which economy is coming?")
"Does a language carry a culture?" I guess there are 2 ways to look at the question. Let's take the case of idiomatic expressions:
1/ (Italian) "Roma non fu fatta in un giorno"
(English) "Rome was not built in a day"
English speakers have adapted to their version the Italian expression and thus, Italian culture has been taken to the English language.
2/ I know some expressions are simply based on some kind of play-on-words, but some others show clearly that a language and culture are one ('they carry each other')
(British) "The grass is greener on the other side [of the fence]" (British talent in gardening)
(Chinese) "The moon is brighter in America" (developing Chinese economy in contrast to the long-time prominence of the USA)
Besides, a few words exist in one language and don't in another, in which case they either a) borrow them, b) or elaborate a whole sentence, c) or choose to simply ignore them. (but my thought here might just be an oversimplification)
I think the same as Travis and Aimen: changing one's culture is changing one's language...they're interdependent, from a sociolinguistic position, at least.
This debate will be open as long as languages exist and evolve...so, let's talk!!
-------------------
Edit?par ruofei le 11-05-2005 04:17
they either a)....or b).... they a) either.....b) or....-------------------
Edit?par ruofei le 11-05-2005 04:22
PS: Lingua Franca. "franca" does not mean "French" but "Frankish" (long ago, Mediterranean people used to be referred to as'Frankish')
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de TravisKidd, postée le 11-05-2005 à 06:48:34 (S | E)
But the term "French" indeed means "Frankish"!!!!
The German word for "France" is Frankreich.. I believe it means "The Frankish State", but what an unromantic name for such a romantic country!
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de traviskidd, postée le 11-05-2005 à 07:03:19 (S | E)
Hmm ... is "TravisKidd" different from "traviskidd"?? Because I can't edit my previous message!
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de ruofei, postée le 11-05-2005 à 08:36:51 (S | E)
Actually, "Reich" in German means 'Empire'...the Frankish Empire...that's even less romantic..! ("Franzosisch"= French)
About your problem of multiple personalities
I'm afraid there's not much I can do -------------------
Edit?par ruofei le 11-05-2005 10:37
Oh yes...I got it wrong...sorry. I looked up in a dictionary:
French> Middle English, from Old English frencisc, Frankish, from Franca, Frank.
Frank> A member of one of the Germanic tribes of the Rhine region in the early Christian era, especially one of the Salian Franks who conquered Gaul about A.D. 500 and established an extensive empire that reached its greatest power in the ninth century.
[Middle English, from Old English Franca and Old French Franc, both from Late Latin Francus, of Germanic origin.]
I should have thought twice before talking
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de dakir, postée le 11-05-2005 à 11:49:55 (S | E)
Hello everybody hello Ruofei
Thanks to all who participated to this debate : I personally pull a lot of it (language and ideas)
About :which economy is coming ? it can be an answer for your question :
"If one language was ever to replace English, which one would it be -or would you like it to be?"
I meant by my question that the country which will have the strongest economy in the world will set its language :
So which economy is coming ? which language is coming ?
have a nice day
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de ruofei, postée le 11-05-2005 à 16:22:19 (S | E)
Hello dakir!
I’m glad you enjoy the discussion
I do too. Your question: “Which economy is emerging?”. Yes, I’d also say that the emergence of a country’s economy and that of its language are linked…but to some extent (there’s always a ‘some extent’ to any theory!).
Take English for example: Great Britain’s economy was the strongest in Europe (can’t exactly remember the date when it started to predominate…might be from the 17th century or is it from the 18th
). Its economy made it possible to acquire new territories [colonies] and thus spread English language. And I’m not mentioning the part the USA played and are still playing in the globalization of English throughout the world.Yes, economy was a key factor. (not sure whether my paragraph is coherent or not….it’s hard to sum up history in a few lines!)
But, if you take the case of Japanese: Japan is the second largest economy in the world and Japanese never developed into an international language. It is the same with China: burst of economy but nothing much is happening with regard to language.
Maybe they are too difficult to learn or maybe we should just wait and see what happens…who knows? By the year 2100, everybody might all be able to speak Japanese!
We still haven’t decided whether or not Spanish could be a candidate for planet’s lingua franca.
I don’t know. The more I talk about this, I more I get confused. In fact, who can predict the future?
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de serah, postée le 11-05-2005 à 16:39:06 (S | E)
hello !
I don't even know if I have understood the topic well but my problem is that, I want to learn commercial english because I am studying accounting and since I am connected here, I haven't found someone who can help me.
please I need help.
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Edité par serena le 12-05-2005 04:02
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de dakir, postée le 11-05-2005 à 19:05:20 (S | E)
Hello Ruofei hello everyone
thanks for correcting me, I appreciate that
I will borrow your sentence and I will add some words, if you don't mind!
"" maybe we should just wait and see what happens…who knows? By the year 2100 (or more than that) , everybody might all be able to speak ( the emergent economy language) "".
If we have a look at the history we will find that the language of the strongest economy at a precise time was the top 1 and was the most widespread (to verify). and I can say that it is a rule. Nothing is eternal even a language..(how many languages had disappeared or decreased).
So that a language can be widespread, it needs much time and great economy. We will see but it needs a long life.
have nice day.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de werriy58, postée le 11-05-2005 à 20:58:46 (S | E)
Hello everybody,
Response to Traviskidd's question.
"Werriy, to say that language doesn't carry culture. Could you elaborate, please?"
I guess right language doesn't carry culture because you said yourself, Traviskidd, that in your state a foreign language is required only if one wants to go to college; of course,
Thanks. Werriy58
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Edité par serena le 12-05-2005 03:52
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de lethidee, postée le 11-05-2005 à 21:50:54 (S | E)
Hello everybody
I'm very interested in
When I hear English songs I have also this feeling. What about you ?
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Edité par serena le 12-05-2005 03:38
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de traviskidd, postée le 12-05-2005 à 01:03:50 (S | E)
For what it's worth, here's an interesting article that seems apropos:
Lien Internet
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de lethidee, postée le 12-05-2005 à 07:11:27 (S | E)
Hello traviskidd
Thanks for your article.
I think also that "a lost language is a lost culture" and if I could have a second life I wish to travel around the world to listen voices and words of all the different people living far from us.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de ruofei, postée le 12-05-2005 à 10:18:02 (S | E)
…Kind of a fatalistic yet truthful message (Travis’ Internet link). The writer’s lexical choice is smart: “[…] languages are threatened with extinction”, “the last speaker of a disappearing language dies off”, “an endangered language”, “Surviving languages”…. Comparing languages with animals express brilliantly that languages are living and that it comes down to us to protect them. And to add to these, I’ll quote Aimen
: “Language is kept alive thanks to the very existence of culture”“Language is the DNA of a culture”…I should definitely remember that one!
You know, Werriy, I still don’t understand how you mean: “a language doesn’t carry culture” (could you please be more specific?). It seems that you emphasize the fact that the globalization of English has been a matter of ‘influence’…And in that case, I think the Internet is more of an influence force than economy. Plus, Great Britain didn’t gain new colonies with the very first purpose of spreading its language (it just happened that it was more convenient to trade and deal with the language of the “mother country” and eventually took advantage of this). But well, English language propogation went through different stages.
When I first posted my message, I said I had “a hope in Spanish and French” but given all your standpoints, I’ve come to realize that it’s almost impossible to challenge revolution and change mentalities…But let’s not jump to conclusions too quickly: “Nothing is eternal” (-Dakir-)
PS [serah]: I suggest you post your message on the “Divers” section
(Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de werriy58, postée le 12-05-2005 à 14:43:16 (S | E)
Hi ruofei and Traviskidd,
Our debate is now ended. You know a debate is a discuss than I held strongly my position with strong arguments. Thus Traviskidd give us his : "For what it's worth, here's an interesting article that seems apropos : Lien Internet"; and you ruofei you exlaimed "Kind of fatalistic yet truthful message (Travis'Internet link). Oh you see, if I didn't held strongly this debate Traviskidd didn't have idea to give us this Lien Internet. So I agree "Language is the DNA of a culture". Thank you to you ruofei and to you Traviskidd, to you Dakir, to you lethidee, to you aimen7... Werriy58
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de aimen7, postée le 12-05-2005 à 15:26:55 (S | E)
Hello everybody,
It's nice to be quoted by you ruofei,
I don't remember the last time I've been quoted, , I'm proud
, but let's not take "la grosse tête". Let's be humbleI just wanted to say that there seems to be a misunderstanding around "language carries culture and vice versa". when I said that, I meant Any Language in the history of mankind. I wasn't speaking about a language which widespreads because of the economic predominance of the country where it is spoken, like in this case "English".
Any language carries the culture of the community where it is spoken. this culture is trasmitted through language( remember your grandparents or parents telling you stories or legends which belong to your community). We inherit this culture thanks to language and we transmit it to our children. There is an oral and a written culture, it has indeed other aspects. Stories, myths, legends are essential for a community to survive.
During colonial periods in history, colonizers imposed their language onto the peoples(les peuples) they colonized. If a language is prohibited as it happened sometimes at that time, therefore the culture of this community dies. There are famous African writers who try today to make their lost languages or dialects live again, although the intrusive language is firmly rooted within the community.
What are the ingredients needed for a language to be the Lingua Franca?
If we answer this question, we will probably be able to understand why Spanish, French and Chinese or any other languge aren't likely to compete with English in that terrible and enviable task.
Who can
answer? The debate is still open.Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de post-scriptum, postée le 12-05-2005 à 20:59:17 (S | E)
Good evening everybody,
There are no language that could penetrate universaly all the populations in the World.
When the Portuguese, Spanish, English and French explored the seas of Africa, America, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives. Firstly, the Portuguese communicated by mixing a Portuguese influenced version of Lingua Franca with the local languages. Lately, when English and French ships came, the crew tried to learn this "broken Portuguese" because they were in competition with the Portuguese. Through a process of change the Lingua Franca would be substituted by the languages of the people in contact.
To overcome these difficulties, it has been proposed that some language (natural or invented) be chosen by consensus of officials elected by the nations of the world, in consultation with experts of various disciplines. There would be a spoken and a written form. But the language would be implemented in each nation. As with Esperanto and similar languages, the idea has not yet spread as widely as intended.
The adoption of an official script for the blind has also been proposed, to correspond to the chosen written international language... The universal language would be implemented in each nation as an additional language, alongside the national languages everywhere in the world. However they don't speak the same English in England, the United States, Canada, Thailand... If English was the winner, then we should probably speak a different English in each country...
See you. Friendship.
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Edité par post-scriptum le 12-05-2005 21:00
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de ruofei, postée le 13-05-2005 à 01:44:50 (S | E)
Aimen, your sentences perfectly fitted here, so I had no choice but to quote it
!The misunderstanding partly comes from the fact that Werriy crossed Travis’ ideas and my own ideas with no coherent connection: Travis said that each state in the USA decides if foreign languages are worth teaching and I talked about the case of Japanese and Chinese languages, saying that the 2 countries’ economy is experiencing a boom without it changing the status of their languages…These 2 statements were not linked at all but he drew the conclusion that, definitely, “a language doesn’t carry culture” (this doesn’t make much sense to me and this is why I’d like him to re-formulate what he actually means by that)
It would be wise to define what ‘culture’ is: a set of learned beliefs, values and behaviors the way of life shared by the members of a society. (www.saa.org)
An example: one way of meaning “how are you?” in Chinese is “Have you eaten yet?”…Enjoying meals and inviting people to diner or lunch is the one priority in China (in the Chinese culture) and when 2 Chinese bumped in each other, it’s perfectly normal, natural and logical to ask this question. Quite funny, isn’t it?
Now, of course it’s not because you speak a language that you belong to the culture of the people who speak it. I speak English but I don’t feel British, American or Australian. I didn’t ‘inherit’ from English (Aimen’s word), just learned it (very different)
As P-S (do you mind my abbreviation
?) says: "But the language would be implemented in each nation. As with Esperanto and similar languages, the idea has not yet spread as widely as intended." If a made-up language really were the solution to a better communication, Esperanto, today, would be the Top1 language. However, because each country has its own mode of thinking, it can’t work universally…some of the grammar concepts or words just cannot be assimilated by some speakers and thus they need to adapt ‘transmitted’ language: see the variations of Australian English is different from Irish English, Canadian French is different from Madagascan French, Cantonese is different from Mandarin, Algerian Arabic is different from Lebanon Arabic….(doesn't this mean anything?)The issue of language will always be an open debate but it’s reassuring to know that we, as world citizens, are working on that.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de traviskidd, postée le 13-05-2005 à 02:30:24 (S | E)
The point of Esperanto (and Ido) is to be a COMPLETELY logical and regular language, so that everyone can learn and understand it. Constructed langues are not meant to replace native languages, but to provide a neutral means of communicating with one another. In fact, by eliminating the need to learn a foreign native language, a constructed language could help PRESERVE the native languages of the world!
I don't think that a language without irregular verbs would be very beautiful, but really that's not the purpose of a constructed language. It instead would be very logical, the grammar very simple. Not that one couldn't be creative in these languages; I've read that there are some beautiful poems in Ido.
By the way, it seems to me that the difficulty of the grammar and the writing ("spelling") of a language are inversely related. In other words, the easier the grammar of a language, the harder it is to learn to write in it. For example, Chinese grammar is very easy (as one Chinese person told me: It's just "word, word, word, word"!!), but learning to write Chinese is almost impossible! On the other hand, learning to write Russian is very easy (Russian is (almost) phonetic), but Russian grammar is impossible to learn!! Then in the middle you have English, with relatively easy grammar but relatively difficult spelling rules, and German, with relatively easy spelling rules but relatively difficult grammar. So it seems that people only have a certain amount of "language brainpower", and they have to decide how to divide it between learning grammar and learning to write/spell correctly!
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de serena, postée le 13-05-2005 à 04:52:13 (S | E)
Hi !
Travis : "Constructed languages are not meant to replace native languages, but to provide a neutral means of communicating with one another."
Thank you. This is what I've been thinking from the very begining of this debate, but couldn't express it properly.
Just let me give you the exemple of a language nobody talked about, but which is a good exemple of a "created" language which still preserves the natives from forgetting it: arabic.
I don't know how many countries speak arabic, but I do know they don't orally do it the same way from a country to another. While written arabic is the same all over the world.
Then, a way had been found to speak it easily among people, but in formal contexts, they all understand each other.
I really don't see the need of changing a language only because we find it hard to learn. Cultures must remain what they are, otherwise, we'll all be lost and have no background. I mean by this that I do agree with the fact that a language carries a specific culture.
If we want to speak it easily by removing some difficult points, then why not, but by speaking. The written language should remain what it is.
And well....English is so beautiful on its own !!
I know I didn't go further in languages as means of better relations, this is too wide to find out a solution. I'm giving a general view.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de ruofei, postée le 13-05-2005 à 11:36:28 (S | E)
I mentioned that Esperanto wasn’t perfect but didn’t say, by any means, that it wasn’t a nice solution. (I couldn’t have found better myself
!) As it is basically based on European languages, it is easy for us to pick it up…but not as comfortable are non-European people. Its logic has its limits. HOWEVER, Esperanto isn’t my area of expertise (and neither is Ido) so I cannot really put forward an ‘enlightened’ view on it (I wish I could though)And, in fact, I first meant to talk about non-constructed languages (this is why I suggested to start a new thread on this topic)
Concerning Chinese language, its grammar is quite simple, that’s a fact (yesterday morning I and my friends go city together). It may just be all about “words, words, words”, still their combination as well as their place in the sentence corresponds to specific rules, which can seem ‘illogical’ to non-Chinese speakers. The writing isn’t actually the most difficult part of this language. But then that’s just me.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de dakir, postée le 13-05-2005 à 12:38:10 (S | E)
Hello everybody
I want just to clarify a point that Serena talked about : it is the different ways to speak the same language while it is written in the same way. I think it is the case for all other languages . The American spoken English is different from the British one, it is the same for French and perhaps for all other languages in the world.
When many countries speaking the same language are far from each other, the difference in speaking is imminent because of the specificity of the region. In addition to that, in the same country, the
Arabic culture is the same in all the Arab countries because Arabic is the mother tongue, the same for Britain and USA and so on.
Finally , I will give an example that shows the difference of making language by culture :
In Arabic, when we receive good news, we say ( I translate word
Why this difference : it is a matter of culture and geography, the Arab states are all located in hot regions ; the icy things are welcome for them while France is located in a bit cold location : Warmth is welcome.
I hope I give a clarification // excuse my bad english
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Edité par serena le 14-05-2005 02:41
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de post-scriptum, postée le 13-05-2005 à 20:03:39 (S | E)
Good evening everybody,
Some linguistics experts in Europe would like to promote English as a Lingua Franca. They would like to accomodate lots of difficulties in grammar, pronounciation and signification by weakening the nuances. A native speakers would not be necessary to teach it because this new 'Lingua Franca' would be made for communication only, but not for literature!
I agree with Dakir because there are many and many dialects in the world so that they would modify their 'own' Lingua Franca (for example English) with their local neologisms or conceps! They would choice their 'appropriate' words in their own vocabulary modified by their ideas or habits. For example, all the Frenchmen couldn't notice the difference between the 'false friends', like 'actuel' in French (current, present in English) and 'actually' in English (vraiment, en fait in French), etc.
In my opinion, it's very utopic to hope that any language could became
a 'Lingua Franca'. I think we always use tons of nuances in our native language so that we would certainly like to find some nuances in a 'new' common langage... We would have to create new expressions from our native language or dialetcs, but we wouldn't be understood by the native speakers or by the others populations!
Have a nice weekend.
PS
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de serena, postée le 14-05-2005 à 03:04:32 (S | E)
Hello !
PS, I totally agree with you. Nice week-end to you too.
Dakir, you're right ! So right !
I didn't consider the other countries like the ones you mentioned. So, thanks for reminding me that.
And the example you gave about how to say "rechauffer le coeur" is excellent!
I've always wondered why the Ivorians use to say "ça m'a refroidi le coeur" to say they feel better after hearing good news. I never tried to take into account any geography context. Cause it's also very hot here, and a little cold never harms!! Thank you !
PS: Your English is good, Dakir.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de fantaisie, postée le 14-05-2005 à 12:05:13 (S | E)
hello
Yes ..English is widespread because it is easy and communicative..its grammar is not very complicated and its lexicon is full of words and expressions coming from other languages..
I think the more important is to speak about universal grammar which depends on shared rools and norms existing in all languages ...and communicative competence which help speakers to use easily english and not Arabic for example
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de aimen7, postée le 14-05-2005 à 14:02:10 (S | E)
Hello everybody,
You're right fantaisie to say that English has a rich vocabulary, because it has a double origin:French and German. That's why we often have two words to express one meaning. Although its grammar is rather easy to assimilate, the problem lies in the phonology. People find it hard to pronounce, it needs a lot of practise and time to grasp intonation, weak forms and so on.
It has common points in the phonological aspect with Arabic: the famous dentals
and 
. These to sounds are very difficult for French people for example.Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de ruofei, postée le 14-05-2005 à 15:09:39 (S | E)
" English grammar is easy" is an oversimplified common knowledge.
Its conjugation may easier than the French's or the Spanish's but it still counts irregular verbs with which every learner struggles ( "I quit
And by the way, do you mean that other languages are not communicative?
Also, are you aware of what "Universal Grammar (UG)" means? It is -was- just Chomsky's theory that says that we are biologically able to 'process' a language. UG defines the innate abilities of all children in the world that allow them to acquire a language (through language samples/inputs picked up from the environment in which a child is raised). One story short, the "Innnatism theory" is an It's-All-In-Your-Head theory that is 'universal' in this sense that every child learns how to speak as biologically/logically as they learn how to walk?
UG does not answer the initial questions.
And neither does "communicative competence" not everyone has the same ability (I might add, "natural pre-disposition") to learn a language or be endowed with valuable communication and eloquence skills...Dale Carnegie was one of a kind I guess
!In my humble view, your 2 suggestions just don't work out, here.
BUT I may have misunderstood you...
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de aimen7, postée le 14-05-2005 à 19:04:57 (S | E)
Hello everybody
, HI ruofei,May be I was a little vague in my argument, because I wanted to join fantaisie's idea that English grammar and lexis are more approachable compared with other languages, but much less however regarding its phonology,( if compared with other languages).
I listed some criteria concerning the possibility for a language to be a medium between the populations of the world,. I collected them from what has been said so far:
-It must be universal
-must express the same way of thinking
-understandable, logical, simple.
-grammar be assimilated easily
-rich vocabulary
-must preserve culture and native language
-enables us to be creative
-the written code easy to produce
-phonetically easy to produce
There are certainly many other characteristics and no language ever spoken could have them all, that's impossible.
Besides, how could we make it possible for all communities to use it to communicate that is to express meaningful utterances if we consider the differences in the conception of meaning and in the conception of the world itself.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de traviskidd, postée le 14-05-2005 à 21:55:44 (S | E)
I don't think I've ever heard of "Universal Grammar", but I do believe that languages are just different ways of expressing thoughts that are universal to all of us.
Take for example the sentence:
There's a wallet lying on the floor in the middle of the room.
I believe that everyone, and hence every language, can comprehend the concept of
1) something existing
2) a wallet (although primitive cultures may have some difficulty with this one)
3) lying on something
4) a floor
5) being in a certain place
6) the middle of something
7) a room.
Although every language may have its own unique way of expressing these concepts, and although these ways may never be word-for-word transferable from one language to another (for "there is" we would never say "it has to it" and for "il y a" a francophone would never say "là est"), these concepts nevertheless exist and are understood in the minds of all of us, and we can all put them together to form a sentence just like my example, but in our own respective languages. As someone (Chomsky?) once put it, we all speak the same "mentalese".
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de ruofei, postée le 15-05-2005 à 01:44:41 (S | E)
What is universal is ...the world
. But as Aimen wrote, we may conceive it differently The ability to speak is universal. But we use this ability differently.
In fact, love aside, is there such a thing as 'universality'?
Travis, what you're describing here is exactly what UG is all about: a set of principles that are common to all languages. Children are born with this special ability and then what they have to learn is 1) the ways in which their own language makes use of those principles and 2) the variations on those principles which exist in the specific language they hear around them.
And so, an Italian and an Indian child will grasp the concept of wallet, middle of the room?still express themselves in different ways, according to the structures of the particular language their respective environment have provided them with.
This doesn't mean that if we're from French origins, our UG will necessarily be French.
If an Indian-born person is raised in Italy, her/his UG will be|come Italian because all the language samples will have been transmitted in Italian language: his/her UG device will have been activated in Italian. Hence, this person will not be an Indian speaker but an Italian speaker.
This is why I said that UG has nothing to do with the initial purpose of this topic...it doesn't help us decide which language could take over for English.
Maybe we should create a language that would MIX words from all the existing languages -including the 'dying' or 'surviving' ones (and not FORM new words): we should all agree that everyone should say the Madagasacan 'hello'> Manao Ahoana. The Spanish 'how are you?'> Como estas?. The Chinese 'my'> Wode. The Italian 'today'> Oggi. The French 'friend'> Ami.
That'd give something like: "Manao ahoana wode ami! Oggi como estas?"
..I think this would be very sweet! HOWEVER, I know, a language isn't just series of words...We should determine which language makes the use of some grammar points easier and we should also decide what should come first in the sentence (time, place, subject?)
This would be more of a universal project than Esperanto. It'd be something half-way between a natural and artificial language.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de fantaisie, postée le 16-05-2005 à 11:46:46 (S | E)
Hello
universal grammar is a concept elaborated by Noam Chomsky in order to explain how the knowledge we have in mind helps us to learn all languages when we take into account the features they share ..for example the case of subject and predicate..so it is more easy for an Arab speaker to learn english although his language is semitic while it is difficult for french who must appropriate the phonetic capacity before..
But it is not impossible if he knows another language like Spanish or Berber ..
there is on another hand a method of contrastive rhetoric which depends on the fact that it is impossible to learn any language if we don't know another language ..so a speaker who knows english could be more competent in Arabic than an Arab who doesn't know another language
thanks
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de zuzuu, postée le 16-05-2005 à 13:49:06 (S | E)
Hi everybody,
Sorry if I make a mistake. I don't speak very well english and for the moment it is the only link which let me the possibility to speak with you.
I think they are many language which are very beautiful but other are more pratice . When you have just a verb a noun and not a complex gramar. So for the moment I think that only the language that more peole learn can be an avantage, not specialy English.
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de yangfeng, postée le 13-06-2005 à 17:33:53 (S | E)
Hello everybody!
I believe English language is now spoken by tremendous people,however,nobody really knows how many people exactly.It's absolutely the most popular language in the world.
Whether English language keeps acting as the "top 1 language " for ever,who knows.I hope it will not be replaced by any other kind of language because it has been playing an important role in global business.Besides,personlly speaking,English is easier to learn than other languages,eg,Chinese.And especially easier for European people than Asian people.
The world is filled with a variety of human languages,unfortuantely some of them are now disappearing from the earth due to lots of reasons.I hope these languages should be protected ,not replaced by other languages so that we can know the culture carried by these languages.I think it's very interesing!
Réponse: English: Lingua Franca forever? de souad, postée le 21-06-2005 à 05:27:52 (S | E)
Hi everybody!
I would like to share with you my point of view about this sensitive subject concerning the importance of the dominance of the "The English language as a lingua franca"
I agreed with aimen1 coz he clarified his ideas with the realistic touch I mean he is thinking analytically. Thanks go one to our unique site who gives as the opportunity to discuss and to get the sensation of the solidarity and fraternity
As I feel we are one family , the English language is the number one around the world I like it as I like the others languages.. The polices and procedures of the globalization impose us the use the English language so why not? All of us have his proper language and if we tried to push our brain to learn more then one language I think it’s an excellent exercise to develop our faculty of adaptation, we must learn from each other , just get the curiosity of shearing with others whatever which language is dominate today but we are here to ‘’hear each other with yearn’’
With my best regards,
Souad.
INDISPENSABLES : 